Ep6 Expert Positioning for Maximum Authority in Sales

Joe Blackburn  0:00  
Direct Sales is what the vendor is. They're a direct sales person. They vend an expert is not. They're inadvertent sales. I'm qualifying you as much as you're qualifying me. And if we're a fit, we'll move forward. There is

Jason Croft  0:10  
a difference. When you have the energy of an expert and you stand there in that knowingness changes the conversation. If

Joe Blackburn  0:18  
you've been doing this long enough, have enough self respect to walk away.

Jason Croft  0:23  
Welcome to the lion's edge, where top performers sharpen their teeth. Hosted by Joe Blackburn, founder of The Lion who is relentlessly dedicated to helping business owners lead multi million dollar teams and me. Jason Croft, I transform unseen entrepreneurs into industry leaders by developing their market gravity. Each week, we reveal proven strategies and raw insights to help you maximize your business, multiply your wealth and make your family indestructible. Now let's create your edge. Joe Blackburn,

Joe Blackburn  1:02  
how's it going here? It's going great, brother,

Jason Croft  1:04  
how are you I'm good. I'm good. You're just you're back from visiting family. You're back in the hot seat.

Joe Blackburn  1:10  
I dabbled in Illinois over the weekend, and glad I did it. Got to see my grandma and my family and my mom and everybody. So my sisters. Fantastic. It was great.

Jason Croft  1:22  
Oh, yeah, need a little little touch of that, and then back to work. And, yeah, oh, it was, was awesome.

Joe Blackburn  1:27  
A whole lot. It was work. Let's just, let's not kid each other. No, it was great. They did, they actually did everything. And I showed up and pontificated greatness and left. That was it

Jason Croft  1:39  
perfect? That's your MO, yeah, that's great. I wanted to jump in and get your thoughts on this. There's a book actually shout out once again to STK, or

Joe Blackburn  1:52  
it's about time to have her on. That's all I'm saying. Like, if I'm around this show, I'd invite her, but since I don't get to pull the, you know, the levers, we'll see what. I'll get her on. I'll do it.

Jason Croft  2:01  
We'll see. There's a there's a big process, well, there's a huge waiting list. I know that exactly, and just a vetting process. I'm still kind of on the fence. We'll see. We'll see. Okay, but yeah, she recommended this book, fantastic book called The the four conversations all around sales, and this core concept of it I just love so much is positioning yourself as the expert rather than the vendor. That big core distinction, right? And we get in this, especially in these roles, we, you know, gotta go put out an RFP, or we have to do this. We have to do that, taking all of that as a sales professional, the owner of the company who does sales, any of that, and stopping and going, you know what? Our company doesn't do? RFPs, I appreciate it, and that's the only way to do business. Maybe there's someone really positioning yourself in this way and in the book's fantastic, but there's, there's two aspects I want to get your thoughts on with this, and how you see just even that core idea, both leading up to the sales conversation, or any sales conversation. How are you position yourself as the expert, and then, once you're in it, what's going in that dynamic? How are you positioning yourself to make sure? And I think, I think we both have, you know, really good insights on so I think I help people more in that leading up to it, what are you putting out there? What do you, you know, what's out there when somebody does hear about you through word of mouth or anything like that, what's showing up and positioning you as an expert, and I think you're a master at once you're in that and building those relationships, positioning yourself while still, you know, hey, I'm, I'm here to help you. You know, there's a, there's a nice balance of that. How do you see that, with that core concept and in the moment, sort of making sure you maintain that expert status?

Joe Blackburn  4:16  
Well, here's something that I see a lot of newer, younger or insecure sales people do? They focus heavily on the process and the product. You know, they're selling the bells and whistles, all these different things, and they're taking their eye off the ball of the person sitting across from them, and what's important to them and the end result, you know, it depends on the business if you're selling, well, let me back up if you're selling a product, like a widget, yeah, you gotta give some description of that. But I see people spend way too much time trying to perfect their knowledge and their proficiency around the mechanics of a product, and it comes across as someone else's you are just trying to sell them. This and you're reciting a script, or whatever you're doing, if you want to be the expert, the product's irrelevant. You know, we talk about this in pillars. That's like the hygiene that's expected. You know, if I'm a surgeon, I don't need to tell you how to make an incision, correct? What are you after? Like, I want you to extract the tumor. I don't need to know how that's done. So what I would say to that is, if you want to be seen as an expert, act as if those things are a given, they're not even that much of an issue. The real thing is, what is it you're truly after? What do you really want? Like, even when we go back to assassins, we tell people before, if you've got a pile of if you're giving me a PowerPoint or a freaking slide deck before you get to that. And you may have to, like someone may have questions. You may get someone that needs a little more, but let them ask. Don't give it to them up front. But more importantly, well, what's important to you? You know, if I said, when you think about your wealth, your family, and everything you're doing in your business, what's the most important thing to you now, who's the expert? Because I'm gonna know more about you than probably anyone on the planet very quickly, and then it just comes through in the confidence. And if you're a professional and you've been licensed, we've had this conversation, I know, in Assassins, in our previous podcasts, you can get someone from point A to point B, if it's law, if it's CPA, if it's mortgage, if it's real estate, you can get a to b, what you're if you're trying to sell the thing, you're gonna be seen as a salesperson, not the expert. So you know, we like one on one. For us, you're the product, and your confidence to help people is what sells it meaning. And by the way, if you can't fulfill it, the world gives you what you, you know, kind of get back what you are. If you can't do the work, you can't do the work. So, yeah, but to answer your question directly in those conversations, start with getting them to where they want to go, and what that is like. You know, I think people get caught up in stacking value. I've seen that or heard that, I'm gonna stack all this. I'm gonna throw like, 50 things out to you, and it's gonna stack all this value. You're gonna be like, Whoa. I really want this. No, they don't. No, they don't. Do you get me? Can you help me? If you can answer that question, you're the expert. Now, like, intuitively, does this person really get me? And then I will believe, can they help me if they can show basic proficiency? And I would argue, if you could do it on a notebook versus a slide deck, you're gonna elevate your expertise through the roof. Because that just is, like, this is ingrained in me. I don't need a slide deck. I don't need a profile sheet. You know what feels good when you sit across from someone and they pull out a profile sheet and start going through the quest, how tall are you? What's your I mean, that doesn't and, you know, so it depends on for the Lions, they've got enough the people we're talking to here, they have enough track record in a sales conversation that they shouldn't have to lean on that. And then, if you wanna sharpen your saw and be better at your skill and know it like the back your hand, I recommend that an hour a day on your skills pretty good, like your specific skill. Is it financial planning? Is it real estate? Is it HVAC? Like the skills of that, yeah, you should sharpen that. But if you focus on those things, you're just now trapped in a sales conversation, and now you are vendor, like you're convincing, versus qualifying and consulting, which is a totally different thing, where I have no, you know, I have no doubt that if you've spent a couple years in your respective field, you're capable of A to B. So to go, you know, one step deeper. Most people make that decision pretty quick. They're not waiting for you to give a 45 minute presentation, they've decided, hey, this person has their things together, and that goes back to you yourself. How much you spend time on yourself matters, because that it's an instantaneous judgment so winded answer to your question, I hope it was helpful

Jason Croft  9:23  
to answer, don't talk so much in the sales conversations, like, like, like, I've

Joe Blackburn  9:28  
right. Don't do what I just did. But you're, you're exactly right in question, you were the salesperson in that one. Yeah, exactly see, yeah, okay. And

Jason Croft  9:39  
to your, to your point that's, that's exactly it. Find out what they want first, and then deeper is, again, I think this gets into the it's easy for the new salesperson to fall into. Sometimes the the prospect asks for that information, right? Even though they shouldn't be asking yet, right? And so that's another level to this, to go happy to answer that, go into details. But first, what are you trying to solve here? What are you asking those, you know, diagnostic questions first, right? And really keeping control, because we, you know, we hear that in the sales books that you know, sales person should, you know, shouldn't, shouldn't be talking more than the prospect, and all those things are true. But there's also a level of control, though, and it's not just what you want to talk about today, you know, right? No, here got Yeah, we're gonna guide this conversation and and pull those right questions out. Well, that's another piece

Joe Blackburn  10:47  
here. What you described was being fast forwarded. If you're talking and someone Fast Forwards you, meaning, just tell me what it is. Tell me what the price is. What is it like if they fast forward you again? If you want, you're saying being positioned as an expert. I can't tell you all these things until I know more about you. You don't go to your doctor and say, my back hurts and get, you know, surgery without the MRI and, I mean, like, so I actually had this happen to me. When was that? Two months, two months ago, got on I was referred to a COO of a company, and he brought his boss on, and he's probably gonna see this for sure, and his boss, and I get it, he didn't know me. He just, just tell me what this is. What is this? I ended the call. I said, I'm done. I can't help you. And then what happened? Do you know what happened next? Called you back. No, you then it reset the clock. Oh, well, what is it? I mean, he wasn't really interested, but I'm not gonna sit there and let someone, as an expert, dictate to me the process. Yeah, I can't give you the right prescription, so to speak, unless I know what I need to know. And that's it's unethical for me to do that, because what would have happened there if I just would have went, Well, we do this, this, this, and this, it cost this, and here's what you're going to get. I'm not the expert anymore. You know it's, it's, um, I gotta be careful how I word this. I'm careful. Sometimes when you treat people like you don't need them, they want you more. Have you ever experienced that? And that's right, that's hard to do at different stages of life, if you're, you know, scrambling for money or new or doing something in business. I am telling you, though I teach inadvertent sales, by the way, that is, you know, like direct sales is what the vendor is. They're a direct sales person. They vend an expert is not they're inadvertent sales. I'm qualifying you as much as you're qualifying me. And if we're a fit, we'll move forward. And that's if I have to close you something's going south. So we went through the conversation. Now the COO works with us and loves it so, and I love him. So it's a win win. I would have not taken the business with the owner. He's an asshole, and in pillars, there's no assholes. I hope he sees this. He is here's an so a lot of it, Jason is, you're, you know, we again. I don't really want to address new people here. If you've been doing this long enough, have enough self respect to walk away, and and if you truly are an expert and you believe you can deliver, it's not shame on you know, you, it's Shame on them. If they walk away from you and you could give them what they want, faster, cheaper, less pain, less you know, whatever mistakes, whatever it is you do, you know. And when I say cheaper, I mean less money over a longer period of time. So less valuable to Yeah, right, if I can truly do that in what I'm good at my gusher, if someone doesn't want to work with me, I guess I say it, you know, quick, good luck. You know, my if you ever receive this from me, by the way, in text, if I just say, best of luck, what that is, is the Oh, down here they say, bless your heart.

Jason Croft  14:05  
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Bless your

Joe Blackburn  14:07  
heart. Um, I'm not sure that's what you meant, but it's and it's we. It's different. You can't be it's difference between confidence and arrogance. As an expert, arrogance, if I steamroll you. You're an idiot. I know what I'm doing. Get out of my way, right? Confidence is, I want to get to know you. I want to know what's important to you. I want to know if what I do is even a fit for you before I go into sales. Vending is, I gotta make as many sales as I can. And that's, yeah, it is what it is. I mean, look, both make money. You just got to pick which route you want to go. You want to be a vendor. You got to have high volume, great sales skills, close a bunch of people. I mean, that's cool.

Jason Croft  14:48  
You want to Yeah, and in that situation, often you're not fulfilling your just self well. Now there's somebody else's problem, because they will. Can be a problem if you haven't done that diagnostic and had that conversation. And that really is too I want to make sure people don't get confused with the tactic of this positioning, and it really is an energy, and it really is a I believe, and know I'm the expert here, because I've put this time, I've had this experience. Now we can, you know, just like we figure out your hygiene on the actual service, there is hygiene around sales, let me make sure that, sure I'm communicating that value, that expertness. I think for me, that's a lot of that comes through even before the sale. Hopefully some some folks are coming to you because of this expert status you're cultivating, whether it's a podcast like this, whether it's you put a book out your content on LinkedIn, I think all of those help that as well, to prime that conversation. And both sides of it,

Joe Blackburn  16:09  
are we padding your stats or padding my stats? So mate, and that's probably pre engagement. That's probably be, you know, what's and this is interesting. We looked at this. We were talking about this before we started like, who looks at the podcast? All these things, social proof that paradigm, Gary, that paradigm has changed in that some people judge competency on those metrics that are visible to the public. How many likes you get? How many subscribers do you get? Do you have a book? Do you have a podcast? All these things, they're making a pre judgment on that. You know, I teach something called pillars. The beauty of that is there's a human being saying this person transformed my life and my business and my family. Would you like to talk to them? So yeah, I and I like having both. And if I'm is, and if I'm in business, you know, if you're accredited, or you have a certification or a certain license, those things aren't I mean, I don't just, you know, I'm a CFP like, I don't just light it on fire. I mean, they are a more marketing organization. It's not, I mean, let's call it what it is. They are marketing the CFP marks, and then you can market them. So that's cool. So I call that like an air cover, you know, if you, if you Googled me, I probably should google myself at some point. It's my criminal, right? No, but if you Google yourself, I mean, you don't want to be a ghost, you know, we, we talk about that in our gilfing, Google, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, you don't, you don't have to be, you know, Joe Rogan, however, you you do need to exist in some capacity that there's a, you know, that's just normal. Now, people do that before they meet someone, or whatever. We teach it, you know, gathering the Intel. However, if I'm introduced, or it's word of mouth, or I've done this X amount of times that comes through before what I say,

Jason Croft  18:06  
Oh, sure, yeah. And there's you're not gonna overcome a deficiency there just by having these other things out. It's definitely hand in hand for

Joe Blackburn  18:17  
sure. And again, thank God. We live in a, you know, a status driven society. A lot of times people are buying an identity, you know, that big beast behind us that's not a mouse,

Jason Croft  18:35  
right? Yeah. And

Joe Blackburn  18:37  
so a lot of times what people are searching for. You know, when we talk about success as a self ideal, how do I see myself and if I can help them see themselves, bigger, faster, meaner, leaner, richer, more. You know, peace, whatever it is, that's where the expertise comes in. I want to show you something that maybe you're incapable of achieving by yourself, or that you aspire to be, just can't get, you know, it's all that's where the expertise comes in. It's the old A to B gap. Man, that's that conversation applies across the board.

Jason Croft  19:14  
So, yeah, well, I think, I think with all of this, as we kind of wrap this up, but it's, it's the awareness of it. It's stopping when you hear this and go, am I positioning myself as a vendor, you know? And and we do easily, especially we go to a prospect who has their processes down, and they're strong, and they know, hey, I'm looking for this. Do you offer this? And they're and, yeah, you become an order taker or a vendor, and you try to sales this or that. This is a good reminder to stop and go, Okay, hold on and you whatever you. Whatever category you wanna put this in, there is a difference when you have the energy of an expert, whether you're in person, you're remote, and you stand there in that knowingness changes the conversation. I

Joe Blackburn  20:13  
100% agree, and you know, for those of you out there, that might be a little shaky. I and I even at my advanced stage of economics and success, as successful as I am, I say to myself all day long, I'm unstoppable at the impossible. So if I'm unstoppable, who can't I help? Like is there? If I'm unstoppable at what seems impossible, I can help everyone. Maybe I don't want to help everyone, but I can, and I'm not, you know, tooting my own horn. I mean, I'm great. Let's get that level set cool. That's a given. Yeah, that's, that's hygiene. If you believe that, though I'm unstoppable, that means, no matter what, I'm gonna get the result for the client. There's the confidence I'm unstoppable. Home Office messes me up. Don't care. Economy turns against us, not my problem. I'm the engine. I will do it. I will put the team on my back, and we will get it done for the person that's most important, which is our client. And if you have that mentality, you should have all the confidence in the

Jason Croft  21:28  
world. Boom, is it done? Love it. All right, lions, there's your edge. See, you, you've just experienced the lion's edge. If this episode lit a fire, if you're ready to push past your current ceiling, there's more waiting for you. Want to see what it takes to become a member of the Lion, visit jointhelion.com to discover how successful entrepreneurs become unstoppable forces and make sure you never miss an episode by hitting subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. This isn't just content. This is your edge.

Speaker 1  22:13  
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