Ep29 Ben Rogers: Building an HVAC Empire Through Loyalty and Relentless Action

Ben Rogers  0:00  
You're extended a lot more grace when you have someone you're dealing with that know like and trust you. You buy grace by putting in the time and energy to build relationships. I think some people forget about that. Whenever I meet with a customer, potential client, I know that they leave that conversation with a full understanding that I am truly passionate about the comfort of them and their family, and that's the message that gets spread through our community.

Joe Blackburn  0:23  
Welcome to the Lion's Edge, where top performers sharpen their teeth. Hosted by Joe Blackburn, founder of the Lion, who is relentlessly dedicated to helping business owners lead multi-million-dollar teams, and me, Jason Croft. I transform unseen entrepreneurs into industry leaders by developing their market gravity. Each week, we reveal proven strategies and raw insights to help you maximize your business, multiply your wealth, and make your family indestructible. Now, let's create your edge. Ben Rogers, welcome to the show. Yeah, glad to be here. Thank you. Well, Joe, I think we've got a great precedent going where you tee these up and introduce Ben, embarrass him, make him feel bad about himself or good about himself. Your call. So, well,

Ben Rogers  1:18  
good at all of the above.

Joe Blackburn  1:20  
I actually prepared for this one, so that's you know let's mark that gold star for me today. You know we we generally I have something really endearing to say about every lion because they're close to my heart and everything. But I'm going to tell you someone else said something about him, then I'll give you my reaction. So Ben runs an HVAC company out in Cache Valley in Utah. He's currently active in the reserves in the United States Army. Thank you for your service, and he's a father with several children, so he's got kind of the same mix everybody has. A lot of stuff going on, running a business in high demand, especially in summer. But one thing about Ben, and I try to goad him into this a lot of times, is his heart and his happiness are evident all the time. He's proud of what he does. He's proud of his family. I mean, he's just kind of like some people are negative. I can't get it out of him. I try really hard to like have him shit on something. He just won't do it. So I'm going to give you some some feedback. A guy we know, he's not a lion, but someone I know that went on a razor side by side ride with Ben, he said to me. Also got to hang out with Ben Rogers. He's a freaking stud. That was his text to me, and I said he's one of the most loyal, lovable, big dumb animals on the planet. Dude is crushing it, and what I mean by that is he doesn't get bothered by anything. He's always in a great mood, and he's loyal to everything and everyone. Wouldn't hurt anyone on purpose ever. Dealing in a tough business with hard labor and a very competitive market, and just loves life. And that's what I love about him. It's like being at the in person. It's just a different magnetism around. I'm truly happy and grateful for what I have. I've overcome a lot of things in my life, so I don't go around shitting on people. I just love them, and that's something that has stuck out in my mind since I met him. How's that, Jason? Oh, appreciate it. I don't even know why I'm here, so I'll just sign out. We're gonna tell you that comes later in the show, yeah, yeah, we we start positive and it goes it goes the other way really fast. So don't worry. I know that that work ethic and mindset as well as mindfulness both are are huge things on this show and in the lion itself. And so those are big, big deals to Joe for sure, and honestly, to to me as well. And I want to get into your HVAC business and what got you there and everything. But if everything that Joe was just talking about rings true, where do you think that comes from? Is there a conscious aspect to maintain that positivity and work ethic and all of that,

Speaker 1  4:07  
for

Ben Rogers  4:07  
me, it's always just come come naturally. Joe kind of mentioned, you know, a troubled past, real, real, real rough childhood, and so it's it's always been stacked against me, and that there was no other way to to overcome those challenges than to just stay positive about

Joe Blackburn  4:25  
it

Ben Rogers  4:26  
and fight like hell, and so that that was kind of the attitude that I had,

Joe Blackburn  4:30  
you know, from the time I was six years old, and I I think that just kind of got stronger as time went on and turned me into the I don't know bubbly, happy, cheerful guy that I am now. You know, I've been through plenty of shit. Most of us have. I figure that if I can choose the outcome, why not just be happy about it? And that's great. So many people choose the opposite, though, in the same situation. And I think part. Of it, sometimes it's just down to wiring, you know. But a lot of times it's it's survival too. I imagine that going through that that somewhere along the way you discovered like taking that positive approach either made you safer or got you through things as a protective mechanism. You think that was that was the case, or you just kind of find that along the way, or just happen to be there?

Ben Rogers  5:30  
I think it's just a kind of a combination on all of it. Really, I've seen all sides of it. I see. I still see it every day. Just with with the folks around us, you know, I've tried weeding out the negative, of course, but just so many family members that have have chosen a different route than what I take, you know. And and I mean, to be blunt, they get they get shit on, and in turn, they respond to that by shitting on those around them. And it just it's a it's a

Joe Blackburn  6:00  
never ending downhill slide. That's the piece and the unfortunate part, especially when you're when you're that close to it and you can see like you know a couple of different decisions and their life goes on a different trajectory. Can't do it for them. Yeah, there's that aspect of things, and I can see already like that's why you're in the line and thriving in the line, and I want to I want to get into you know that that business side of it. What got you to into the HVAC world and and of course running your your own business with this?

Ben Rogers  6:35  
I mean, initial entry into it was super easy. I was 19 and jobless, and my my oldest brother was working in a fab shop for for an HVAC company here in town. Yeah, I had just come home from boot camp, and I told my brother says, "Hey, dude, I need a job. Do you have any ideas?" And he says, "Well, these guys are hiring." And so I put in an application, started that next Monday. You know, start doing it for eight bucks an hour, right? Really enjoyed the work. It was just, it was fulfilling. It was fun. I got to work with my hands, see a lot of cool buildings, be part, be a part of a lot of really cool projects. I kept kind of maxing myself out at whatever company I tended to be at. I, I never made it more than about a year and a half with any single employer before I'd quit, and that was for a handful of reasons. Like I said, you know, I was either maxed out as far as what they were going to pay me or what they were going to teach me, or I was just sick of working for the assholes in town. It just kept kept going, kept going, kept going. And then in 20, I think it was 2016, I tried getting out of HVAC completely. I'd spent about 12 years as a volunteer firefighter as well. Always wanted to be a wildland firefighter specifically, and in 2016 I got that chance and got hired on with the local hotshot crew. And so I was like, "Sweet man, this is my foot out the door. I'm done with HVAC work. I'm going to be a firefighter." That was the most brutal summer of my life. Those guys kicked my ass up one side and down the other, and it was incredible. Get home from that. Met my now wife two weeks after we were married. We deployed to the Middle East for a year, and wow, get get home. You know, from that, that's another story. There, got back into HVAC because it was just my my fail safe. It's what I knew. This time was a little different. It was on the industrial refrigeration side of things. Did that for about a year and a half while I was still kind of freelancing my own HVAC projects. You know, I'd I'd gotten my contractor's license and just didn't have the balls to take it full time. You know, it's a scary jump. And then I essentially woke up one morning and was like, you know, fuck it, let's let's do it. Rogers HVAC is a go. This is all I need, and I still still winging it six years later. Are we all? Yeah. Still, I've ever known to do shit was to jump right in and figure it out as I go. We're still kicking. We're thriving. That's awesome. Well, what do you think that was that morning? Like sick of who you were working for, just tired of playing small. Like what was that that jump that was just like this is it. At that time, I was actually working for my brother in law. He's incredible. He's a stud. We still talk all the time. There was something bigger for me and my family. We'd had our first daughter at this point. She was like six months old, so that put an extra step into the equation that really screwed with us. But I knew that making this hourly wage for this refrigeration company just wasn't going to cut it,

Joe Blackburn  9:47  
and so I did something about it. Something that drives a lot of us is that just that idea of having a ceiling above you at all. Oh my gosh, it it it wears it wears on. So yeah, if there's. Somebody or something. Yeah, let's go higher. Oh yeah, let's jump into the business aspect of this because it's one thing to be great at what you do, especially when you're in the trades, and it's so easy to be good at that and just go and do that and be a one man show and call it a business. How do you make that shift over time? To this needs to this needs to be a business. I don't need to be the one doing everything. How is that journey going?

Ben Rogers  10:33  
It's a pain in the ass. I tell everybody all the time. Like I'm a lot better with my tool bags on than I am in an office environment. That'll probably never change. Breaking that mindset of I have to be on this job site and I have to be teaching these guys firsthand. That's something I struggle with every day. It has gotten easier, you know, as as I've been able to kind of collect some of the right folks underneath me that I can trust. You know, I've got one dude. You know, talking to Joe all the time. Joe knows about Rollin. He's my right hand man. Like he, he's the one guy I know. I can, I can dump on him, and he's gonna fulfill kind of what what I have in mind. He he picks up the pieces that I break, and he's really damn good at it. I need about three more at this point before I can can really feel like I've accomplished much. We we've been able to find some office staff that's been incredible, and that's where I've needed the biggest help. And that's one thing that I've I've really really had to just pound and pound and pound in the heads of some of my other friends that are entrepreneurs, like you have to make that that jump. You you can't you can't you can't create and send the bids, collect the invoices, manage the projects, do the projects by yourself. It's it's impossible. You're going to run yourself ragged. You're going to leave loose ends hanging. You're going to leave money on the table, and so once I learned all those valuable lessons, I was able to to really take and push. You know, within the last two years, I added it up. I've got about eight or nine friends that I've I've pushed into all starting their own companies at this point because they they took and seen what I was able to do, and they were like, "Hey, wait, I want some of that.

Joe Blackburn  12:22  
You can do it if I can do it by being my lord. That's that's the real inspiring factor here. So, what have you seen, Joe? Is is with Ben's evolution since being in the lion with that side of things? Well, I mean, number one is the P and L is actually a part of the business. So now that I know what one is, correct. That was a big step. You actually have a profit and loss statement, financial statements. We did Q whatever two reviews of P and Ls, and this is not uncommon. A lot, a lot of people. You're running a six, 7, $8 million business. You know, you're P and you're probably your your own CFO, and you've got a couple people to help you, like Ben does. But what ends up happening is you have one thing go south on you in that P and L, especially when you have cost of goods, it can change your trajectory in a heartbeat. So just paying attention to it was like the first thing. Like, hey, let's get a routine in where you look at this thing once a month, maybe at the end of a week, but just be aware of where things are because you know you're dealing with the uncontrollable of when someone else's pays you when you're doing trades. I mean, you put all your rules in place, your net 40 fives, your net 90s, and all you can put all that stuff in place. But at the end of the day, you've got people to answer to on the labor side, on the vendor side, and like Ben said, I can't do I can't do all the bids, do all the work, and do all all these things. And now, what you've grown to what 18 people, 16 people? How many 21 right now? 21. I don't even. So you had 21 people running around to hit payroll. I got to know where the money is and what it's doing. If you interviewed his people, they love him. So the loyalty factor in the business is there now. It's how can I help incentivize around doing the work in a good amount of time, and what the consequences are if something goes south. When do you bring it to my attention? It's that next. You know, if you're the doer, it's now everyone. It's it's one on one, but how do I make them think differently? It's not about fulfilling an install or anything like that. It's like they have to be aware of the repercussions as well and what it costs. And now you don't go and put the P and L and say you cost me money. That would be dumb. So building awareness, getting, and he does. He's right. He's got two office staff now. They know where to focus and what needs to get done. And it's just putting a little more of a framework around operations, so that when they go out and get big jobs or they get hit with a hot summer, which I believe has happened, you know, we're he he's run 1618. Hours a day, and so is everyone else. Someone's got to mind the store, and that that's been a big learning thing. If you run a five to 20 person operation, you don't have a full time CFO, you know, mining the inventory and the receivables. So you got to be at the top, aware what's going on financially, and make sure that you're fulfilling the jobs, and you know there's a lot of HVAC companies in that valley, right, Ben? Way too many. Well, but I would argue from the word of mouth I hear and what I hear from you and different. I mean, we got a lot of clients there. Who do they want to do their work?

Ben Rogers  15:36  
Yeah, you.

Ben Rogers  15:37  
A very high percentage of this valley chooses us.

Joe Blackburn  15:41  
So we've got all the key components. I mean, like you think about a great company, maybe like a unicorn. They got some things going for them. Number one, they got a really good team. They've got a great network, which Ben is, you know, with everything going on built, and they've got trends. So if it's seasonality and we're hot. We got to take advantage. And I mean, just looking back over what the last two months, I would assume from what we've discussed, your billing is at an all-time high. Correct. Now you got to pull through. I and I guess we're both. Yeah, yeah, you were throwing over 18. Yeah, but I just get. And again, when you're in the fray, it's hard to be aware, and when you're lovable and you expect good things from people, sometimes people aren't who they say they are. And we've learned that lesson a little bit. Look, hiring, recruiting, whatever you call it, it's all a gamble. It just is. Like if there's no personality test, it's going to tell you the truth about anyone. So if that's what you're using, good luck, because they're not going to answer questions to put them in a bad light, so really figuring out where motive lies and how to actually recognize it earlier, have the conversation a little longer, you know. Because when time is of the essence, I just want to get shit done. So part, you know, why I call him a big dumb lovable animal because he thinks this way. I just love everybody, and I'm not going to hurt anybody. Not everybody's like that. Very few people truly are good, and he is. So recognizing early where that pattern is on, maybe this isn't the person because they're showing their cards early. That's something we're working on, and he's done a great job. You brought in a new commercial estimator, correct? We did. So they created an interesting problem here that a lot of business owners, especially in when there's contracting and trades involved, they're getting because their brand is so good opportunities that they don't have as much experience in. And the estimator is like, "I'll estimate this. So, like when I look at the business, yeah, they can fulfill an install and maintenance and the one-on-ones of heating and air conditioning better than anybody. And they've gotten how many big projects have you done in the last six months? Three, four. Yeah, I only three or four. Three. I mean, big and maybe more industrial. But now the brand's begging the issue of other people want us to do their work. So the next bottleneck is how do we get enough of the right people and experience to fulfill on what the market's asking of us? So when you look at growth trajectory, that's all. That's everybody, by the way. You do something really well, and then you get a bigger opportunity. It's called I call it ratcheting. So as the business ratchets up, Ben's going to have to keep up with not only the fulfillment but what it does to that P and L, because a bigger job demands a bigger output on cost of goods up front. Correct? We got to purchase materials and work with our vendors and do all these things just to get on the job, so hiring in the in the next phase is going to be some labor. But there's probably got to in Rollins out foreman running all kinds of projects. There's probably going to have to be an elevation in either someone running internally or the office staff picks up more of that. But everybody's going to grow in this, you know, you're not running a corporation. It's not a 500 million dollar corporation, so you don't have silos and departments and all those things. It's a local HVAC company, so you got to put your mind around how do we get to there without shitting the bed on fulfillment, and that's a tough spot. It, I mean, it's probably the hardest spot there is to be in business because you've done such a good job connecting. Now the market wants more of you.

Joe Blackburn  19:27  
You got to fulfill it on the backside, which will at some point require a leap of faith into something that maybe isn't your wheelhouse yet. But you got to do one, and that's going to take more than anything. Just hey, we're gonna go do this. We'll figure out how afterwards. You know, a lot of people get caught up on how. How in the hell am I gonna do this? The way you overcome how is committing to doing something. We've been talking about it a couple weeks. Like

Ben Rogers  19:54  
that question of how am I gonna do this hasn't ever really been a problem with me. Correct. You just. Did it? Just you just do it, and that's the hard part for me. Is how does that not make sense to everybody? Stop fucking thinking about it and let's go.

Joe Blackburn  20:09  
Well, a lot of it. So you, the trickle down effect of I'm not sure we can do it. It's self doubt, and at the top you you have them, but if you act on self doubt, you get stuck. That's where the the plateau comes. So I don't. I'm not saying this is where you are and what you're doing. I'm saying where we're going, bigger leaps, and that's you know, it's. I don't think it's any secret right now that the HVAC world is hot on a lot of lists. Strategic buyers, private equity, all these people think I'm going to buy all these HVAC companies, and this shit's going to be easy, and we're just going to do it. Ben, let me ask you a question. Look back over the last week. Can someone just walk in and do this? Not a chance. No way. They wouldn't make it a day. So you got intellectual capital, experience, loyalty, right people, and the right opportunities recipe for huge success. The way I look at that, and I think people are getting a little tired of a like picture of an HVAC thing on a van that got rolled up by a private equity company, and someone comes in with an iPad and tries to sell them like a bunch of bullshit. They want someone that they know, like and trust in their community that's got skin in the game. This fucking thing goes south; they're right down the street, and we're gonna work it out together. Versus, I got some decision-making tree somewhere out in the universe that couldn't give two shits about my home air conditioning or the you know refrigeration on top of my unit or whatever the hell it is. I think there's a real competitive advantage, just like this advantage of human connectivity over the AI, whatever shit. You can you can run from it, or you can capitalize on the ability of you being someone that's I could actually trust. There's something there, so my diatribe is over. I'm going to turn it back to you, Jason, and then go ahead. So, with that, both the growth and plus that mindset of I don't worry about how we're just going to go. We're going to do. How do you communicate that to the team and and make sure that that's flowing through everybody is that daily standups is it how is that getting through? It's definitely what's

Ben Rogers  22:30  
led to some bottlenecks because I kind of made that comment. How is this not a you know an easy decision for everybody? Well, most of my guys don't share the same sentiment and feeling on that that I do. A lot, a lot of them strive for more, more of a a plan that we have in place, and that's where Rollin comes into play. Because I'll I'll dive headfirst into these crazy ideas, and Rollin tends to rein me back a little bit and say, "Hey, dude, let's go about this a little bit more strategically, let's put a little bit of thought into it, and that way we're not just dumping this shit on our guys and expecting them to be able to keep up with you. And I was like, okay, well that's probably a great idea. So that's how we've we've tried things. Now, when when I get something that I really want to just jump into, Rollin and I powwow about it first, and decide if if it is actually a good enough idea to carry through and pass down, and then at that point, then then we take in a more organized manner, which is very difficult for me, and get that communicated to the to the crews. You know, a lot of it can involve like even just what projects we're going to assign which install crew to, what truck assignments we would prefer each crew to have, dependent on their needs, things of that nature. Where you know a 10 minute chat can save us three days worth of heartache if I send the wrong crew to the wrong project.

Joe Blackburn  23:51  
That happens

Ben Rogers  23:53  
all the time. Not so much anymore.

Joe Blackburn  23:56  
Give me some more examples like that of something that's you're just like we're doing this now, and Rollins like, cool, we can do that. Let's do this in a better way. What's what's a recent example of that?

Ben Rogers  24:08  
So again, like the the HVAC world is just so incredibly vast, and there is so much to know, learn, and do, and the lessons never end. We got kind of a dedicated crew, a two-man crew that that does our furnace and air conditioning replacements in an existing home, and then we've got two or three other crews that do you know the the new construction side of things, and to some level they are relatively interchangeable with one another, but the the the retro crew has their strengths, and the the new install crew has their strengths, and we we discovered that we're better off just leaving them separate because when you're on a new construction job site, it's a little bit more acceptable accepted to be look rough and tumble. You know, swear maybe smoke on side if you're a cigarette smoker. Why send those guys to do a changeout? And I get a call from the homeowner saying, "Hey, dude, your guys are smoking in my driveway. They just shit in my bathroom and didn't leave the fan on." And I just just kind of shook my head, and thank God it was a husband and wife that are that are friends of mine outside of work. We were able to sort of laugh it off, but the wife was kind of pissed off by the the disrespect that was shown on her home. That was kind of a really big deciding factor. We're like, okay, we have to break these guys up and rely on keeping them on the assigned projects that are most suited for them because this motherfucker just made me look like an idiot. The gas station was a three-minute drive down the road. Like, get the truck, go down the road, dude.

Joe Blackburn  25:58  
Can I point one little quick thing out now? You said you knew the couple. You're extended a lot more grace when you have someone you're dealing with that no like and trust you. Like they understand that that was dumb. You addressed it, solved it quickly. But if you're just another provider, that's a bigger deal. So you buy grace by putting in the time and energy to build relationships. That's what I think some people forget about. That like I have a little more. We're gonna make a mistake. Everybody makes them, you know. So if I've got a strong connection with someone, I'm not saying it's justified. That was stupid, and maybe should have been discussed beforehand of etiquette on job or whatever. Yeah, right. Correct. So what? But when my word of mouth and my connectivity is strong, I'm offered grace back if I accept. Hey, that was dumb. We'll fix that. That won't happen again. Versus a stranger. Now you can't work with everybody you know. I get it, especially in that world. There's so many opportunities in your client service. I don't care what your business is. If people have a certain feeling about you and something goes south, they'll at least be understanding or discuss it, and not just jump on. Here's an idea. I've seen this. Jump on a Google review or Facebook and say this just happened in my house. Here they are with a picture or a video of some asshole standing out there smoking. So, just a little side note for the peeps out there. Well, and and that's that's a great point because in the conversations around word of mouth, building no like trust, all of that that's rarely thought about is that aspect of it. It's all on the front end, right? Get the business because of this relationship. That's a great point of when something goes wrong, not if you know. Yeah, it's an actual race that's allowed. Let me tell you a quick story. I'm gonna steal the spotlight from Ben because he's tired. I'll let him rest. This is a real life story. If she sees this, she'll know it's true. Once upon a time, I had a service associate that was awful. I mean, terrible. She messed everything up. Showed up 15 minutes late every day. We could not terminate her. She reported up a different line of the business, but was our but the clients loved her, and she was great at having relationships with the clients and being concerned about them and trying to help them. She just stunk at everything else. It bought her connectivity with them. Bought us more than I could have ever paid her. It just they were they oh they understood. We love you. Don't worry about. Not a big deal. She didn't get yelled at all the time. Very rarely, just from me. Sometimes, never went anywhere. By the way, was dumb. I quit doing it. What it does is, it's an honest mistake most times, or just a bad moment, and it helps you keep continuity of the relationship. Let me ask you guys something. I think we've all have relationships. Are they always 100% awesome? Why do you tolerate someone making you mad or doing something dumb like your kids because you love them? Okay, I'm done. Back to Ben. Sorry. And speaking of that word of mouth side of things, I mean, I imagine right now, especially in a hot summer in HVAC, you're you're probably not hurting for new business coming in with the phone ringing. But as that side of your business and in what you you do, your role there with it, how are you building those relationships and getting that word of mouth and new business coming in.

Ben Rogers  29:42  
I mean, a lot of it is our our response time. If if we hit 100 degrees, that's unbearable, and it's like emergency situation because it just doesn't get that hot here. And so, as we were coming into summer, knowing and seeing the forecast, it was going to get this hot. That's one thing I. My staff, I says, I don't give a shit what it takes. When someone calls without an air with without AC, we're there within 24 hours. Period. And that was something that we were able to uphold all summer long between my my office staff, my two service technicians, and myself to be able to fulfill that. And that that right there went loads above what our competitors were doing. They they were promising within 48 hours, which is still a great response time. But I says we're we're we're gonna do better than that, and I don't care what it takes. And a lot of that did end up falling on my my shoulders personally, being evenings, weekends, holidays, and I'm okay with that because that that's what built that kind of name recognition for my company. The other part that I think a lot of folks in in Cache Valley really appreciate is is is when they do see me showing up personally to either work on their system or give them a bid to replace their existing system. It gives them some level of gratification knowing that again they're not working with a big corporate company. You know, some dude in a white shirt with a tablet trying to sell them the most expensive system possible. I'm your neighbor. I'm right down the road, dude. Like I get it. I've I've had to put a new air conditioner in my own house before, and it's not it's not always a enjoyable thing to have to pay for. But let's do what we can to make this as easy and simplified for you guys as possible. And that that conversation right there has led to probably more sales than I could could ever track. Whenever whenever I meet with a customer, potential client, I know that they leave that conversation with a full understanding that I am truly passionate about the comfort of them and their family, and and that's the message that gets spread through through our community. And you're heavily involved in the community, in addition to all the stuff you do,

Joe Blackburn  32:01  
like every parade, every festival, business organizations. I mean, so in addition to running a business that has seasonality with intensity, you still get out and get back.

Ben Rogers  32:14  
We do a lot of support work with with various nonprofits here in town. Yeah, I mean, particularly veteran oriented businesses and nonprofits, but there's been a list of them through the years that we've done our best to support, and I think that's also played a huge role in growing as quick as we have.

Joe Blackburn  32:34  
Absolutely, yeah. So the bottleneck that is nationwide, generationally wide, is finding. folks in the trades come and work for you? How are you getting getting through that? Addressing that? Trying to overcome that? It's it's rough. It's rough. When I first started, it was a one man show that lasted about six or eight months.

Ben Rogers  32:59  
When I was able to bring on my nephew. He was 23, maybe 22 at the time, entry level. So I was able to train him. It's a lot of work having to do that, but with one guy, it it really wasn't bad. He was, you know, it was just kind of me and him. And then a few months later, Brawlin finished up college and and started full time, and so for the first couple years we were just bringing in entry level apprentices, and we Roland and I were able to teach them ourselves, and that worked really good to the to the point of about six employees, right? And then the work started coming in. It was like shit, dude. We don't have time to train to train guys up. We need guys with experience, and so we were able to find one or two more, you know, guys that maybe had three or four years under their belt. A couple of those guys are still with me. I've got some some real, real loyal dudes. And then the same thing happened: bigger projects, more projects, not enough hands to do them. And the one thing that we'd really noticed was there was kind of two different ways that we were able to try and fulfill our staffing issues. We we found that the experienced installers here locally were were kind of drawn towards us because they they knew the work environment that we had built and they wanted to be a part of it. Or if I knew of someone that was at one of my competing companies, if I wanted him, I was going to get him. I want the world class talent working for me. That's still something that we do. Unfortunately, we're kind of running out of options. It feels so. We're going to have to start kind of looking outside of Cache Valley, potentially bringing in you know folks that aren't necessarily within our immediate area. The coolest part of that was when I've got guys currently working for my competitors. You know, some of the biggest companies. In town, saying, "Hey, dude, we've heard about how badass Rogers HVAC is to work for. Are you hiring?" I get calls like that every other week. Build the environment that the the top tier talent wants to come to, and you won't struggle with finding quality employees.

Joe Blackburn  35:16  
Yeah, I mean that's the that's the in that exact same bucket, right? That Joe was just talking about with the relationship on the customer side. Same thing on the employee side.

Speaker 2  35:26  
Yeah.

Joe Blackburn  35:26  
So looking forward, I mean, you you're doing this, you're expanding. What are some things on the horizon that either from an employee standpoint, or maybe structurally on the business, what's what's next that you see that's got to happen in order to continue that trajectory?

Ben Rogers  35:55  
These I've talked to Joe about it for months. Commercial new construction that that that's the next step that that has to happen in order for us to get past where we're at. That was why we took that leap and hired the commercial estimator that we've got. He he he brought six or seven years of experience doing commercial HVAC estimates with him. Again, he he he was a prime example of what I said a few minutes ago of working for one of one of the biggest companies in town, and their morale was shit. And he called me and says, "Dude, do you need do you need a guy like me?" And I says, "Yes, absolutely." I didn't jump right into because I didn't want to commit to his salary. And then upon realizing, like, well, shit, dude, if I don't commit to that salary, then there is zero chance we're going to work our way into these commercial projects. So we have to do it. Let's go. Hired him that Monday. He's been here for three or four weeks now, and so now we're going from bidding, you know, 25 or $30,000 residential projects to 300 to a million dollar commercial projects, and again, it's it's really really tough to break into that market because as far as the commercial builders are concerned, we're still an unknown HVAC company with with no track record of commercial installation, and all it's going to take is one or two guys to give us a chance, and we'll be set. And well, we do we do have one smaller commercial builder who has been very very good to us, so we are kind of starting to build that little bit of a portfolio that we can start to share with some of these builders who don't know who we are. That's the next step.

Joe Blackburn  37:38  
But how do you build that relationship on that side and that whole new new silo.

Ben Rogers  37:44  
I'll let you know when I figure it out. No, yeah, that that one's different. Like with a residential builder, you know, it's usually a one or a two man operation, right? I can call those guys up, take them out to lunch, and get to know them. They get to know me. We build that friendship. They award me the work. With these bigger commercial builders, they don't give a shit if you want to buy them a ribeye. They they they want to see your your work done right, done fast, and and for I mean realistically for the lowest bid possible. It all comes down to the bid process on these commercial projects, and that's where I'm glad that I've got Mark taking care of that in because that's not something I have direct experience with. Once we can get some of these projects awarded, and people again see that the quality of work we do, even on a commercial level, then I'm I'm hoping that that's the ticket.

Joe Blackburn  38:34  
Let me help you. So the next thing is you're going to go against bureaucracy with a barrier, meaning you may talk to people that aren't the decision maker, and the actual decision maker may, you know, put a barrier between you and them to get through. So as you move up in the market and you add more decision makers, higher dollars, all those things, they don't generally go direct, like you said. So now I got to figure out how to navigate that. Talk to Trina Anderson about it. He works with Fortune 100 companies at the highest level, but you didn't start there. So that's a whole different skill set of how do I know who to talk to, right? And who to build a relationship with? What happens is the people below them get a mandate, so they get a within price or whatever, they get a mandate. But there's someone in there that has the keys of the kingdom. That's your next. That's your got to count. Hey, Jason, there's my next step. Perfect. You're like, yeah. What do you say? Yeah, yeah. And that is that's where my head goes with that too, because it is you know goes from oh yeah, I just talked to the owner of the company to I got find that decision maker, which usually isn't the owner of the the other guy company there. Yeah, yeah. So remember this. I don't mean to interrupt you too much. There's this old stupid game called the Six Degrees of Separation, Kevin Bacon. You know this, like he's been in every movie. So every movie he's been in, they're six degrees away from every actor on the planet, or something. It was like cool in the early 2000s when LinkedIn came out. But the truth is, you're about six steps away from any human. So then you just it's a who game, and I didn't like it. It becomes like a CIA espionage thing. You're gonna enjoy it. I can't wait. That also brings up an interesting point that we can kind of kind of wrap this on though. As you as you move into this new space, I mean, you said it yourself. They're really looking for. Yeah, you got to know what you're doing, but we need the lowest bid. This is there. There are too many boxes to check, and it's a it is a bureaucracy, right? Running these things, how do you not become a commodity in that business? How do you get to shine, bring all these intangibles that you've been building on the residential side to the commercial space? I don't know. Other than just to to be given that chance and to prove it, you got to get one. Yeah, on the commoditization of price, you got to be within range. Yeah, which we're we're going to figure that out. Like, I mean, price market dictates price, so you're going to have to stub your toe a little bit on pricing. That's number one, and then you got to figure out who the players are after you can get your foot in the door somewhere. Like there's no magic bullet on this one, but when commoditization happens, what is the only thing left? If we're all priced the same and it goes to the lowest bidder, we're within range of low. How far apart are we now? What do I have? What what's left? Relationship. Yeah, that's it. They're all people, so it it's harder to start there though because they have the back to the barrier. Now I got a big ass mountain in front of me between them and the person. So and you can't spend all your time there, so you have to put a strategy in place to get your foot in the door, take a leap of faith, get all the feedback, which is not going to be all positive, and you're going to lose some. That's how you go up market. Well, and you may find that isn't something you want to play in. Some people find that, you know, you may. So, what happens in this exercise, especially, is you may find a sweet spot, but we don't. It's an unknown. So, if I within that commercial space, like a sweet spot of range and budget and size, yeah, right, yeah. So, you know, something. You know, we've got.

Joe Blackburn  42:41  
I have clients that they could charge a lot for a service. One comes to mind specifically when he watches this. He can know who he is. Gross revenue wise, he can charge a lot and has demand, but the work it takes to fulfill it, net revenue wise, isn't better than the one where they're in the sweet spot. It's net net, You know we pay, so we pay all the inputs, the labor. You know that this goes back to that thing I said about P and L. Gross is a deceiver, so we don't we don't know right now where you're gonna lie in there, but you should try it because if you can fulfill there with net revenue, with less sales, number one. So I take the CAC and sales cycle out because I do bigger and less jobs to cut out chaos. That might be it. But if at the end of the day we're compressed on price and net revenue is somewhere in the ballpark of what I do in my sleep, but the hard thing is, is you got to do them a couple times to figure out if that's where you want to go.

Ben Rogers  43:46  
Yep.

Joe Blackburn  43:47  
And then you find your wheelhouse, and then you put everything you got into that. It's fun. That's how you go from three six to 10, or you can just hire more installers and try to dominate the market in in installs and maintenance, everything works and nothing works. It's finding what works best for you, your company, and your pocketbook. And if there was just a map that someone say, do this, they sell those online. By the way, go buy one and try it. See what happens. You can you can try it. It might work. You don't know. That's the common theme here too. Back from the very beginning of the conversation of of jumping, doing, not worrying about how, like just going. That's the only way to figure it out because you can. The way not to do it is sit there for six years, figuring out that plan.

Ben Rogers  44:39  
Yeah,

Joe Blackburn  44:40  
yeah. The great. I posted this this morning on the inner circle. The greatest teacher is doing. I can learn all I want till I do it. I don't know. Yeah, fantastic, Ben. Thanks so much for being on. Love it. Excited for you. Super impressed. This is a amazing trajectory that that you're over. So,

Ben Rogers  45:00  
keep rocking and rolling. We've accomplished some good things and done some good shit. I'm pretty pretty proud of where I'm at, especially you know if you look back at what I where I came from to where I'm at now, it's pretty fucking impressive, and I'm happy with it. Awesome.

Joe Blackburn  45:16  
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Speaker 1  45:50  
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